Gracias por el aporte Raúl, el tema es muy útil para todos.
Una nota para ti, en EU casi no usamos la palabra "bitch" para
hablar de perras. Debido a una conotación negativa que le han dado,
es mejor decir "dog" sin distinción entre perro y perra. Tal vez en
otros paises es aceptable esta palabra, pero aquí sólamente lo dicen
para significar p--a.
David

--- En Espanol-Ingles@..., Raul_E <rauler@g...>
escribió:
> Hola CLHW,
>
> It is only natural that we have difficulties talking about
> this, it is a very subtle matter. I have a rather extensive
> discussion of the Spanish subjunctive written by two ladies
> I knew at the U (they were doctoring with my teacher of
> Greek, a philologist) and I see that every time a Grammar
> specialist sets a bottom line (as "subjunctive expresses
> DESIRE"), another specialist comes and finds the fifth leg
> of the cat. Anyway, judging from their own conclusions, it
> seems that you have a very accurate idea of the matter.
>
> CIN> where the expressed hope/fear is contrary to the
> CIN> actual situation. This is
> CIN> also where subjunctive is used in English.
>
> They quote a scholar (Tovar) that says : "... es el _modus
> irrealis_." and a second ( Bassols de Climent) that says
> that it expresses (as the Latin subjunctive) "...two fundamental
> ideas: volition and desire. From those derive the other
> shades of meaning (1) that can be expressed with this mode
> (possibility, unreality, command (2),prohibition,etc)."
>
> This second scholar also points out that as the original
> subjunctive was capable of so many meanings that it became
> unpractical and was replaced in early times by phrases. The
> following example shows this event from Latin to Spanish:
> Latin : "Timeo ut veniat"
> Spanish : "Temo que no venga" (Note the "que" that
> introduces a subordinate phrase)
> English (Sue's version negated) :"I am afraid he isn't coming"
>
> He adds that subjunctive persisted in subordinate clauses
> and that from a syntactical point of view this is its main
> function "...to characterize the subordinate clauses in
> opposition to the main clauses.." and that the tendency is
> that the syntactical function prevails over the semantic
> function (its expression of desire, unreality, fear, doubt,
> etc.).
> A symptom of this is the way of teaching the subjunctive,
> always stressing the subordination by means of the
> conjunction "que" ("que yo venga, que tu vengas, etc).
>
> (1) shades of meaning = matices, matiz = nuance (?)
> (2) command = mandato
>
> CIN> So, did your teacher say that fear is usually an unreasonable
reaction
> CIN> which is not supported by reality?
> CIN> Like a person who is afraid of lightning because
> CIN> they might be struck by it
> CIN> but in reality they are not likely to be hit?
> CIN> Aren't most cases where fear is involved contrary to fact?
>
> Fear is a primitive reaction, needed for survival. Your
> association with the sense of subjunctive (the "modus
> irrealis") is a very subtle and interesting insight.
>
> CIN> But what about cases where the fear is
> CIN> reasonable. Like a person having a
> CIN> weapon aimed at them. Their fear of the weapon is
> CIN> reasonable. Would Spanish
> CIN> also use subjunctive for this?
>
> Yes, because there is no other way of expressing it, and no
> matter what you perceive in the situation, fear is always a
> mental state.
> As seen before, doubt, caution, fear, etc and related mental
> states need the subjunctive as their proper mode, and
> remember that _possibility_ is also in part a mental state :
> "Es posible que la pistola esté cargada" (It is possible
> that the pistol is loaded).
>
> Do you have a dog ? My niece has a beautiful Kuvasz bitch
> (big white hungarian watchdogs) and she _knows_ when a
> visitor is afraid of her, and also when the owners of the
> house dislike somebody. Invariably she tries to approach
> that person and barks at him/her. I think fear is also a
> bodily function as primitive as weariness or hunger and it
> shows to animals very clearly by odor or gestures they
> understand.
>
> --
> Saludos,
> Raul_E mailto:rauler@g...